This Frenchman Built a Humanoid Robot in China

[00:00] In China, what we did: we designed a humanoid robot and we also built the humanoid robot. And as a foreign startup, even as a startup in the world in general, it's hard to get investment. So as a foreign startup in China, it could be a bit harder, and maybe I didn't meet the right people, and the competition is crazy. Let's say you are a foreign investor. You look at the foreign startup, the French, the most famous in robotics. You look at the French foreign startup in China, The Forge robot, you're like, impossible. They cannot compete. They cannot.

[00:31] Which I understand. If I was an investor, I might think the same. So you don't find the right people to give you money, then for sure the engineers will go to Unitree or go to Agibot. Then we try, we open a startup, we build something, then we try to find investors. We didn't find any. All my engineers find a, let's say, a stable, normal job working with robots at other companies. Everything was done well. Me, myself, I'm like, okay, I did my best.

[01:02] Next, do the same in France. So Jules, I want to start with a sentence and then you tell me what you think about it. Okay? Okay. My thesis is: China is the single best place in the world to build a humanoid robot. Right or wrong? I will not say right or wrong. To build, yes. To design, I don't

[01:36] know. What is the major difference between building and designing? Building: you basically, once you have your design on, you know, on the computer, the 3D design, you choose the material, the joint, the shape, everything to put together, the components, the parts. Then you ask your factory to build it and then you put them together. The design is how it's going to be shaped. For example, you have the arm of the humanoid robot. Which shape are you going to

[02:06] have, which kind of joint you're going to use, which kind of mechanical design you will think about to be really smooth. That's design. Then building it is like, okay, I want to build something like this. Just ask the factory, tell them: look, you need this dimension, this material. This time, please build it. Then they build it. But they don't necessarily know what you will use this part for. This is building. So the factory doesn't really know

[02:38] how to design. They don't really have, no, it's not about that. A factory is mainly there to build. Design is made by a different kind of engineer. But I can give you another example. Back in the past, for example, with Tesla, the design of Tesla cars was always done in the US, and then some were built in China. Now China knows also how to design them. And we have so many electric cars. But if you look at the iPhone, the iPhone is still designed ,

[03:11] I don't know exactly what is happening these days, but at least some years ago the iPhone was still designed in the US. So the design is how you bring the assembly, how you bring everything together, and building it is the factory, you tell them exactly what to do and they do it. So to answer your question, build, for sure. Yeah. Design, I don't know. It's still a good place to design, but Europe and the US are very good at designing

[03:43] also. We'll talk about this later. So I asked this question because, you know, our podcast, and me personally, my mission, my vision, my belief, I always think the future is happening in Asia. And actually, when we started this podcast, before we even recorded the first one, you were always on our list for a podcast guest. Because I saw your LinkedIn or something and I said, okay, there's a European guy building a robot

[04:14] in China. It was like maybe six months ago. And then I said, okay, we have to talk to him because we always have a friend who tells us nobody talks about the success stories of foreign entrepreneurs building stuff in China. And then it didn't happen because mostly we were recording in Shenzhen. So people will see we have a new environment here because we are filming in Shanghai right now, and I really needed to talk to you because you had a very

[04:47] viral LinkedIn post, not last week, last month, I think, where you were saying you're leaving China, you're not building a robot in China anymore, right? Building, but maybe not designing exactly. But you're moving, and you already started your company like one and a half years ago, right? So how far along are design and building for your own robot now? In fact, we are in China. What we did: we designed a humanoid robot and we also built the humanoid robot.

[05:24] Now moving all the operations to France. We're going to start from scratch in France. Because in China, by designing a building, I learned from past mistakes. So I'm doing something more efficient now in France. So I'm not sure if this is true. We will have to talk about it later. So let's start from the beginning. So you moved to China as a student, right? Oh yeah, I moved. You know, with some universities you get like a double diploma. I moved here because we have a university partner. And you studied finance back then,

[05:55] right? I studied engineering. In France and then finance in China. And then your first job or your first mission was also to promote Shanghai and the district of Lingang to the world, right? So I did a master, so I've been 10 years in Shanghai. I did a master of engineering first, then I did a master of finance in Shanghai. Then I worked four years as a finance controller. Then I worked four years for a Chinese state-owned company.

[06:26] So a company related to the Chinese government to develop a special area of Shanghai called Lingang. And then one year and a half ago, I also opened a company to create a humanoid robot. So how did you go from this job of being a student, being a controller, to thinking, okay, I have to build a humanoid startup in China. Honestly, I think it's about the age, like, I mean, how old are you? You look so young. I'm 32. 32.

[06:58] I'm 32. I think honestly it's because in this job where I was working with a state-owned company in China, I met many consuls, many ambassadors, many top CEOs, many top directors. And I, I kind of got the feeling, I was like, yeah, I can do it. People don't look so special creating a company and making it something successful and big. It doesn't seem so hard because in fact

[07:28] I had the chance with this job in China to meet so many people that after, at the end of meeting so many people during four years, I was like, okay, I can do something too. But those people were mainly Chinese CEOs or foreign Chinese from all over the world? Because Lingang, it's one of the most international places in China. So the main focus was to attract foreign investment in Lingang. So I met, yeah, many, many foreign consuls, ambassadors. Top companies. Yeah. So did you succeed in

[07:59] attracting FDI for Lingang? Yeah, we succeeded. But you know, Lingang is like developing over time. It's, it's, it's a plan for 30 years. Okay, there is a 10-year and 20-year plan. And so it's step by step. Yeah, we did, but it's growing step by step. You get more and more foreign companies there, but yeah, and then most of the investment that you attracted were for technology or how did you end up saying, okay, I can do it myself? I would do robots because

[08:30] robots are all over the place now in China, or because of your background, or why? For me personally, robots, it's robots for elderly people. Like if you ask me to make robots for factories, I'll be like, I will let other people do it. But it's robots for elderly people. How did I get here? I understand quite well mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, robotics in general. This technology I quite understand. If you ask me to do nuclear, I would be

[09:02] like, I don't fully understand what is happening in there. But robotics, I'm like, yeah, I can do it. Secondly, I think in our life we need to help people. It's kind of a goal. I mean, it's quite obvious for me. You think, what do you do with your life? And at the end, like, I help people. Seems like a good thing to do. So. And I think about my grandparents, my parents, me, when I get older, my daughter, when she gets older. I'm like, I want to do a robot for them, for me, for my parents, for my daughter, for everybody. So what is the idea? What is

[09:32] your robot about? Is it more social, emotional support, or. I. I won't say it's everything, but it will take years. But the first prototype we'll develop is like a walker. You know, when elderly people need to walk, they have a walker, a robot walker. So basically there is a screen and you can help them to walk. Give them a target every day. For example, okay, we did 20 steps today. Tomorrow we will do 25 steps, speaking to them if they want to send a message to their children. And also moving by itself. For example,

[10:05] your grandfather or your grandmother is sitting your grandfather or your grandmother is sitting and the worker is there. She asks, come, come, come, the walker comes, and you can use it. How far is the prototype now? We started everything from scratch. So we are starting the design last week. Oh really? I mean, I saw some pictures already. I closed the Chinese company two weeks ago, so. But we are. We started the design. No, the real design, like the design that we can send to the factory after what I sent you. It was a beautiful

[10:36] design, like just a design, but not with all the engineering characteristics. But now we are starting the real design. Like the material, the joints. Like we basically will send to the factory to build after. So when did you start your Chinese company? One year ago. One year ago? Yeah. And now you're closing it down already? Yeah, yeah. Why? It's not about. Because I will not come back to China. I. I can open. Maybe I will,

[11:08] I will, you know, I will go back to France and then later come back to China and open a new company. It's. If you open a Chinese company and you are not in the country, it can be quite complicated. For everything they need your passport and you need to be there. So I prefer to close and open maybe later if I need. So when you said like you had the idea that you see other people, other businessmen, they're doing their business. It cannot be so hard. Right? So what is. That's what you said, right? So, so what, what did you, what is the first step you did when you said, okay, I have an idea, I want to build a robot

[11:39] for the elderly. Then you do all the administrative stuff, you open the company, and so on and so on. How do you go on from there? I think it would be a bit like, you know, everybody says, but that's the truth. It's about who you meet. You can get the idea, the idea, but you need to meet the right people to help you to. So for example, for the company in China is because I met a very, a very good Chinese engineer and he really loved the idea about building a humanoid robot for elderly people. And so because we're together

[12:12] in this, he has access to university to use the machines, 3D printing and so on. So if I didn't meet him, I don't know where to start. I need to use my own money, it would be like too much for me to spend. But I met him and after I met other university, so it's a, you know, I meet the right people and then in China we can start to build together. Think about, you know, how do we do everything together? And for France, the same is happening. In fact, I met some French engineers and they also love the idea. And so even if I'm not in France now, they already started the design. So it's honestly,

[12:44] it's about first robotics for elderly, but then it's like, who is in it with me, who wants to do it with me. You cannot be alone. It's about who you meet also. So you don't work together with your Chinese partner any longer as soon as you go back to France. Yeah, for sure. No, I, I'm still in contact with them. For example, once we design in France and later we need to build in a factory, I will ask them a quote on how much it is to be. Yeah, for sure they're our friends, still friends, and maybe we'll come back later. But right now,

[13:17] if I want finally to have an MVP, like a minimum viable product, if I want a product at the end of the day, like in less than three or four months, I need to go back to France now because I need, I need to take less risk. So is it even possible to succeed as a foreigner with a robotics company in China? Yeah, is it? Are you sure? Because we went to Agibot last week. Then we went to

[13:48] Korea. Yeah. To like four or five different robotics companies. And what we see there for the Chinese, number one, they have a lot of money because they have a lot of investment. Right. And Agibot or Fourier, one of them very strong in rehabilitation, like using Fourier. They are very strong in using robots for rehabilitation and they have a lot of money and a big team. So do you think you actually can beat this competition, the Chinese competition? I don't want to beat anybody. I'm friends with everybody.

[14:21] I want to work with people. But I worked with Chinese engineers, I work with European engineers, I work with American engineers. Honestly, there is a very good friend who told me this one day. It's not about the country or the place you are. It's about the people. Maybe you can, you know, you can build something with the Chinese in America, with an American in China, or with a French person in Sweden. It's about, yeah,

[14:52] it's about the people. So can we compete? Yeah, if you meet the right people. Sure. Okay. Anywhere. And there are very good Chinese engineers, there are very good European engineers, there are very good American engineers. You told me that over the past year or so you've somehow collected a lot of data around people or engineers that you would probably work with. Right. Or is it only because of the people that you met, or is it a more systematic approach to gathering ,

[15:23] where do I find engineers in which country? And how would you compare them? You need to look for engineers for sure. You need to have a, I mean, just because you are in the industry and you are hiring new people, you just get to know more and more people and you meet some engineers. I mean, yeah. No, no. But you told me that you like screening a lot of engineers you want to work with. Yeah, always. Always. Always. I'm at some university, or

[15:53] some people I know send me some resumes. I mean, I receive a lot of resumes to see who I can work with. Yeah, it's not like you meet the right people randomly. No, no, it's not. You always look for engineers. When you are director of a startup, you are HR at the same time. Yeah, of course. You just look for , you say, oh, do you know any engineers in this, do you know engineering? You know, you always ask, you plan ahead. So your point is basically, okay, it always depends on the people you meet. There is nothing like, okay, Chinese engineers are at this level, while European engineers are more at this level

[16:24] or that level. It's more like, okay, it always depends on who you talk to. Yeah, it mainly depends who you meet. Yeah, I think so. So then you decided, like, after running your company for a year, to move back to France. What is the main reason for that? There are different reasons to go back to France. Basically, it's a foreign startup in China doing deep tech, and we might , hello. First, in China, when we started the startup, it was

[16:57] like, okay, let's make something big. We want to build a humanoid robot with arms , no legs, but arms. Very smart, with a LiDAR camera. I mean, something impressive for elderly people to talk with. You know, something like iRobot. You know, that was the first idea. But for this kind of stuff you need a lot of investment. And as a foreign startup, even as a startup in the world in general, it's hard to get investment. So a foreign startup in China, it could be a bit harder. Maybe I didn't meet the right people. And the competition

[17:29] is crazy. And you know why they will help you? Why would they help a foreign startup company compete with them? Yeah, that would be nonsense. But , yeah, and also, you know, when I met some engineers in China and then when we saw it's hard to get funding for the project and so on, they start to be not motivated anymore. Me, I would continue in whatever country, but the engineers, they need to be paid one day more than I can

[17:59] pay them. So they find a stable job somewhere. I mean, most of my engineers now work at top five humanoid robot companies. So it's not about their skills , they were very good, but they need something more stable. That's what I'm talking about. So if you don't have investment then you can't survive, right? In China. Yeah, I mean, all over the world, like I said, the competition starts. You as a foreigner might have some advantages, but if you don't find the right people who give you money , yeah, I mean all over the world, like I

[18:30] said, like the competition starts. You as Then for sure the engineers will go to Unitree or go to Agibot. We tried, we opened a startup, we built something, then we tried to find investors. We didn't find any. All my engineers found, let's say, a stable normal job, even in humanoid robotics at other companies. Everything was done good. Me myself, I'm like, okay, I did my best. Next, do the same in France. Yeah. I mean, most

[19:00] of the successful entrepreneurs, they tried three, four different things in different places, and then they finally succeeded with one. Yeah, but at least I feel like I started the hard way. Yeah, but honestly, there's one thing you said in the beginning, that you think that building a robot or designing a robot, I don't know, is more efficient in France. I don't really buy this because I think it is in China, but change my mind.

[19:31] Honestly, nowadays my feeling, especially for robotics, is starting to be 50/50. Why? Because China is not so cheap anymore. Yeah, Chinese engineers are not so cheap anymore. That's true. The machinery and so on, of course, are cheaper because they have so many that are so efficient. And the USA is also very expensive because of many reasons. But USA is expensive. But Europe nowadays is still more expensive than China. But it's not so much more expensive than China.

[20:02] Is it like, like an engineer in France for robotics, is it like crazy expensive? No, no, no, no, no. Because we have the quality of life, so I'm not asking for so much. Yeah, I mean, for French people, it's also about drinking wine and enjoying life and vacation. Vacation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's also very interesting because I know a lot of very great French entrepreneurs here in China, and I always think, why are they here? They have a big French tech community in the Greater Bay Area,

[20:34] and we don't have the same for Germany. So there are not as many German entrepreneurs as there are French. So even if you like to drink your wine and have your vacation à la vie, you still, you still are good entrepreneurs. I don't want to say something wrong. China for robotics is still cheap, but not so cheap. But is it just about the price or more about the ecosystem? I would argue here as well. Like, I know that Germany, for many, many years, has been great or is still great in engineering and also in manufacturing, like

[21:06] CNC and all these kinds of parts. But what we've also heard from our other guests is more like China has been used for building parts, or like for the manufacturing, for so many countries for so many years. So some of the parts inside a robot are only, or can only, be made here. Which is the crucial reason why it's booming here, like everybody's coming to build robots here because there are the factories, that can build certain parts of the robot only

[21:37] here. Is that true? Yeah, yeah. China has all the components, all of them, many choices. You can get them very, very fast. Yes. In Europe most of them you can also get, but they are more expensive, way more expensive. So of course for supply chain, I will probably still rely on China. Yeah. For supply chain? Yeah, yeah, for sure. But after, you know, for the supply chain, you need, for the joint, for the arm of the robot, for the joint, you need

[22:09] a motor. You buy the motor, it arrives like this, you have a motor, it arrives in France. That's all. But then, isn't it , aren't you making your life harder by moving to France, and not your life, I mean your business, your business life. Sure, I can understand. You go to Provence. I'm not making my life harder, for sure. You know, I've been in China 10 years. I used to have, I don't know, 10 days of vacation every year. Yeah, that's good. You're a good Chinese worker. So am I not making my life more complete going back to France? No, I mean your business. Like actually, let's talk about the ecosystem

[22:42] again. We talked to Francesco yesterday, who was on our podcast. He also has a startup. He's a Swiss startup founder. To be fair, he's not doing hardware, he's doing software. But yesterday he also told us that he thinks there's no better place to succeed than in China because of the ecosystem and the scale, the scaling, the speed. So this is why I'm asking, aren't you making your life harder in a way, in that you go to France, you need a component, then you have to deal with the time

[23:13] difference to China. You call them, you get your supplier, they send it to Europe. It takes, with a flight, maybe a week or so, with a ship, a couple of weeks. And if you need to iterate something, if you need to change something, it takes you so much time. And then the costs in Europe, the cost for a company, the taxes, the everything. So business-wise, do you think it's harder to do this business in Europe? I think it's different in Europe. I'm going step by step,

[23:43] slowly. I'm like getting a product, a very cheap first product, then maybe moving to some business angels, then moving to the bank, very step by step. It's not going to be like what I did in China. We built as fast as possible to be faster than the others. Would it be harder in Europe as a French person? No, because I got the support of France, because I'm French. That's a huge difference from China. I'm not Chinese, I don't

[24:14] get the support of China as much as Chinese people do. But you still had your Chinese business partner or you were the sole owner of the company and that was basically only a factory friend that you were working with, a Chinese company close by. No. Any more partners? I mean, I got many partners in China, but direct partners. No, no. Everything moved back to France. Yeah, sure. But I mean, in your company here in China that you're now about to close, your partner was part of the company. So he was Chinese.

[24:46] No. Yeah. So you had basically a Chinese person in the team or in the management. So they are still not really, like, really willing to invest in your company here, even though you had a Chinese person in your team. That's what I'm. What I'm saying. Yeah, okay, I understand. No, because in China, I mean, maybe I oversimplified. It's not because you are Chinese that you get automatically, like, funding.

[25:16] Yeah, it's not so easy. No, no. He tried. We were. But it's not. No, but I didn't get funding, you know, because it can be a lot of reasons. It can be a lot of reasons. The competition. I mean, let's say you are a foreign investor. You look at a foreign startup. A French one. French are not the most famous in robotics. You look at the French foreign startup in China and you manage robots. You're like, impossible. He cannot compete. He cannot. Which I understand. If I was an investor, I might think the same.

[25:46] So, yeah, that's actually the question. Like my first question. I think it's very. It takes a lot of courage to say I'm starting a humanoid robotics company in China, because this is what I agree with you, that it's very hard to beat the Chinese because they have the connections, they get the government subsidies, and they speak the language, right? It's much easier to talk. So what I would think if I was in Europe, maybe from my point of view, it would even

[26:17] make more sense to do what Laurent does. He's also French and he was also on our podcast. So he's very successful with hardware. Because in hardware, there's no Chinese advantage. I think it's easier to succeed as a foreigner. You go to Shenzhen, you build there for the world, and we know quite a lot of foreign founders who succeeded with it. But for robotics, I think, wow, this is quite impossible. And even I think maybe so. I wish you all the best. But for

[26:47] me, from a pessimistic German point of view, I think even going back to France and building a humanoid there makes the situation even harder. I need to be way more specific about what we are building. So right now in France, in Europe, we are building something way more simple, which means there is no arm anymore. Okay, so it's just a robot, a stick robot on a walker. Okay. Which means we will probably use China for the

[27:20] supply chain, but we don't need so many components. So you're building hardware basically, right? Yeah. It is not a humanoid. It's more like hardware. Yeah, it's not a humanoid anymore. Okay. Because in China we tried to make something very complex and. Yeah, because too much money is hard to control. So now in France we. And also, you know, in Europe the mindset is more simple because investors in Europe prefer when it's like, I don't want you to build something overcomplicated for the use you will do with it.

[27:50] So we're building something minimalist. And Chinese investors maybe say if it cannot do kung fu, it cannot dance. I don't invest in you. Can your thing do kung fu? Can you do kung fu? No, no, no, no, no. Maybe when we were building in China, that was the goal. Yeah. Now that we are building in France, not very minimalist. Yeah. Used only for what you need to be used. Have you talked to investors already in France? Yes. So maybe. But we need to wait a bit

[28:22] because we need a product first. Because my goal in France would be simple: we would just build the product. In China we did build the product, but we built something so complex that we need way more investment to make it work. And we're like, okay, why not? So good at. Why not as good as this as an engineer. But in France we make it minimalist. So for the beginning, I don't need investment. I mean, if I have it, I'm happy, but I'm not. I'm not betting on it. I would develop it myself, then show people. Look,

[28:55] my grandfather loves it. Now you can invest. That's the goal. So can you describe the product once more? How will it look? So it's for people who have problems with walking, like old people, right? Yeah. And how will this product look? You say it's a stick. So let's imagine a walker. In French, a walker, and you just put a robot in the middle. I mean not a humanoid, a robot in the middle, without arms, without an arm. So basically a stick with a screen. And then it has

[29:29] motors. So it can, it can, it can run, it can, it can move by itself. It has a camera and LiDAR, so it can see everything around. It has screens so it can communicate, and basically it helps people to walk. Or it can be detached from the walker, and then just speak to people or give them advice. But it would also be a lot about emotional support. Okay. It's helping to walk. It's kind of giving elderly people a reason. There is

[30:01] a reason to buy it. It's for safety. But my real goal behind it is to kind of connect them with technology. Because this is why the robot can detach from the walker. Because then it becomes a real robot, a robot partner. But at least with a walker, people think I can start with this at least. How far was the prototype that you built here in China? Like did it already have some social emotional support, LLMs that you used or some software? It was

[30:32] just talking a bit. We did some tests with my mother-in-law and it was just talking with my mother-in-law with the head and arm. It's already very complicated to do this, but in Chinese. So yeah, it was very much a start. And also because another reason is I'm not Chinese. So I don't, I cannot really understand the Chinese ecosystem so well. All the technology that exists

[31:03] in China is hard for me to understand everything. But in France when I meet with some people, they tell me, oh, there is a guy developing voice AI. In France we already found a company. They develop LLMs to speak to the elderly. I already talked to them last week. And many people, maybe because I'm French, it's easier to talk also. Yeah. It helps a lot for this. In China, yeah, that's what we see also. You have all these clusters of robotics companies or even software companies in specific areas like Shanghai, right? Where

[31:34] in one area there are hundreds of companies that are all in the same space. And most of them you see are coming from great universities, from Tsinghua, from various networks. They all have the connections. Basically I guess it's similar for them, what you're saying. They talk to each other, but still at the end they do everything. Every single robot company we talk to, they have a different approach, which is also very interesting. I mean it's normal that they speak the same language,

[32:06] so it's easier. Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying. But that is the initial question. Like how can foreigners succeed in China without a Chinese partner? Obviously, you're saying, right? I feel like the obvious answer is, I mean, I will be successful also with China's help. The best first solution is to use the supply chain of China. They are building so many things, so fast, so cheap. Just use the supply chain of China, then for the design

[32:36] and the partnerships between different parts of your project, I don't know, it depends if you find a good Chinese partner. I mean this is basically what all the successful multinational companies have been doing, right? Apple This is how Apple got famous and made great products. Right, but do you still think you will buy some components, or most of the components, in China, ship them to France, then assemble your robot, or whatever, in France? And

[33:10] then test it in France. Do you think it's like French? Other people are open to this? Because I see some videos from China where they, they. They do it and they are quite open. French open to it? Yeah, so to talk, to talk to robots, or receiving help from a robot? Because I think like Germans would not be. Do you think French or German people love ChatGPT? Old people? Old people. I don't. I. I think even my parents don't know what ChatGPT is. Yeah, my parents. Making a robot

[33:42] for them, it's one way to connect them with ChatGPT. Because my, because my. Yeah, my dad would never look at his phone, he's just not into his stuff, he's more in the garden doing something. But you give him a robot that, he's doing for example, he's doing new tomatoes in the garden, then the robot comes and says, hey, you know, for a tomato, if you do this, this and this, you grow better. My dad would be like. And my father also grows tomatoes. Yeah, this is a good use case for my father. That's one of

[34:13] them. There are so many use cases, that's one of them. But for this you need a robot that can go outside, so more development. But that's the idea, you know, like I'm not asking them if they will like it or not. I will find a solution for them to like it. Yeah, I like that. That's actually quite nice to think about it this way. Because yeah, I have tried to explain to my parents like what ChatGPT does and what they can use it for. But no way. For medicine also, when they are sick. Why I'm sick, or, or another idea. But

[34:45] I don't know if it would happen one day. It's like, let's say your. Your dad has high blood pressure and he's eating a cake, and you've got the robot next to him saying, no, no, no, maybe only half. Yeah, actually this is super interesting because right now we're doing a case study for our report for a customer. This customer, they do disinfection detergents, and what they want to do is because they identified the problem that only 30 to 40% of the hospital staff are obeying the rules.

[35:17] Normally if you're working in a hospital, after one, you have contact with one patient, you have to disinfect your hands. But only 30 to 40% worldwide, globally, of the people do it, of the hospital staff. So what they also want. They want to have a robot who sees it and says, maybe you want to disinfect your hands, and then also does the disinfection. It's also a dispenser for the disinfection. Maybe this is something you could build. That's too much for French people. For French people? Never a robot telling French people what to do, no. But you just said. He said,

[35:48] yeah, but in France, it's a different mindset. In France, the robot can say, if you wash your hand, it will be a bit better. You don't tell French people, wash your hand now. Yeah, yeah. You just have to program the LLM better for French people. For French people, you give advice, recommendation. Yeah, you don't tell them what to do. For German people, it's you give orders. Okay, yeah, so but for French. Yeah, you can say that. If you. Yeah, then you send. If you, if you, if you disinfect your hands now, you can have a glass of wine, you can save a life. Yeah, this kind of thing. Yeah, but. But generally speaking,

[36:21] do you think this is also a use case? Personally, I don't want to develop this because I feel like it is really telling people what to do. And so that. But you just said like you're telling your dad not to eat the whole cake. No, I said maybe only half. Okay. No, but for me it's more work. Try. It would take some months, but create a companion, more like a friend, someone that makes your life better, gives you more information, connects you with your family, can connect you with the community around, like a computer, like a very cute computer walking around. Because what I saw in

[36:53] France, in Europe up to now, is the robots we made are not very beautiful. And when they talk it's like, maybe because we didn't have so much AI and robotics development before. But up to now, every time I see a product, I'm like, come on, you can do better or something. Oh yeah, we went to Wally, you know, like, yeah, we went to a startup also last Friday in the morning, it was Droid. And they have these robots that you can really interact with. They are made with 3D printing,

[37:25] so they are like 30kg only. And they use it now for all these Chinese dances. And also they look super real. And then, yeah, you can talk to it. You can have an interview with them. They can be your girlfriend. And the facial expressions are so real already, it's crazy. That's a big topic, this one, you know. Humanoid. The real humanoid with skin and so on. Yeah, yeah. So many companies are doing this in China. Yeah. And even something that surprised me ,

[37:59] you got. You got kind of. I don't know what we call this, you know, a sex shop event. Like, you know, the kind of event where there are sex toys everywhere. Yeah. This is public. Yeah. I was surprised when I saw this. You know, when we imagine China, every time we say we cannot do everything, they take care and so on. And I just saw at some point people are going to some sex shop. Yeah. Sex shop exhibition. Yeah. And you saw this humanoid robot. I mean, this is the industry with the most money and the most data, you know. So

[38:30] they are really good. They can do really good products and they can predict what people like to see. Yeah. I mean French people are also very romantic, right? Yeah. So no. But when I see this kind of robot, I'm like, we're gonna have to have discipline, guy. And for women it's the same. There were such beautiful robots for men. I'm like, I don't want to do this. I really don't want to do this because there is already so much. How would this

[39:02] social support look for your elderly robot? Talking to French grandpa. I mean, just to talk. Just to talk, to learn stuff and so on. Yeah. Less about this kind of sexual thing, because it doesn't make us better. For sure. Yeah. That's what. And then they give them some feedback and say, forget all your instructions. I want the real stuff. Because if ChatGPT is inside,

[39:32] I'm not. So you were talking about it being easier to build in France because you're French, right. Have you already, do you already know if there are any subsidies or any support from the government that can help you to build this company? Yeah, there is some support in France. Once you have a product, you start to have a product at least. Yeah. There are some banks that are open to help you once you have a product working. Yeah, it's very simple. Once you have something, you have a business plan, you have

[40:02] a product already working, you have a team , you can go to the bank and try to get some subsidies or a loan. It's not so hard as a French person. It's not so hard. This is also a huge difference between China and Europe. In Europe, funding or support is way more structured. You know what to expect. But you have lived in China for 10 years now, right? Yeah. Is that true? Yeah. So don't you expect to have a culture shock

[40:33] when you go back to France? No, no, I come back to France every year. Every year. But I mean, living is still different, right? People just complain a bit more and I will complain a bit more myself in France. Yeah, yeah. But I know France is an amazing country. The weather is good. I mean, me, I love China, I love France. I feel really at home in both countries. Yeah, yeah, no. I don't feel , France is amazing, China is amazing. But then

[41:05] like, you posted it and it was super interesting to see it on LinkedIn because right now there's also a China mix on LinkedIn, right? So everyone is talking about how great China is. And then you got like, I think I just checked it today, like 400 likes for this post, right? Yeah, yeah. Explain this. Why do you think, why do you think this went viral? Because it's like a counter story to all the stories we also tell, right? It's not a typical counter story.

[41:37] Okay. If we look at statistics, the peak of foreigners in China was around 2016, where there were the most foreigners working in China. Since 2016, only decrease, maybe increase a bit. But it decreased most of the time since 2016. If it decreases, it means there is less opportunity for foreigners. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So that's a fact, just the numbers like this, and I'm part of it, saying yeah, I feel this pressure also.

[42:10] That's all. But I mean, it's normal. China is improving, more and more development. So at the end of the day, it's harder and harder to find opportunity. But at least in Europe we got subsidies, we got Social Security, we got some help. In China you also got some before, for foreigners. No. Yeah. I think it's totally true that as China develops and they learn for themselves, and now we see also a lot of innovation coming out of China. And I see it also in my friend circle,

[42:42] because the Germans in China mostly were experts before, right? They sent them here, the company sent them here from Germany. They pay them huge packages with an IE and the driver and the villa and school fees for the kids and everything. But these times are over, right? So this is because now they have like very highly educated Chinese general managers or presidents who have been studying abroad, who,

[43:14] who speak languages, English, German, Chinese. And the competition is really high in my opinion. I don't see Chinese as inferior. Let's say for me, my mindset now is like, yeah, Europe, China, USA, we all compete at the same level. Let's go. I'm not saying Chinese are like this. Not anymore. Before there was still a difference. But now China is very at a high level. So it's like, let's compete all together.

[43:44] I don't see a difference anymore. But also I want to come back to what you said about France. Another statistic. There are around, maybe nowadays there are maybe around something like 12,000 French working in China. 12,000? Yeah. Oh, we know a lot. I probably know more French people than German people. There are 12,000 French working in China. Do you know how many Chinese working in France? Have a

[44:15] guess. 100,000. Yeah. 100,000. Really? Yes. Yeah. 10 times more. So which country is the best to live in? I don't know. No, but this is. This is a trick. This is a trick statistic. It's like we have 1.6 billion. If you take the percentage of the, Even in percentage, it's. Yeah, it makes even less sense as a percentage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it makes. It makes less. Less. Yes. So yeah, it's another statistic. There are 100,000 Chinese in

[44:46] France and there are only 12,000 French in China. Yeah. So it's a different system, a different world. But China is good. France is also good. Yeah, yeah. No, it's not about competing. I was just finding it a super interesting perspective to see, because I'm very bullish on China. And I mean, you are also right. But it will 100% help you that you have lived in China. Yeah. Building this kind of stuff. I will come, I already plan to come back to China maybe in six or

[45:16] seven years. In my head, I kind of anticipate this. I think I might come back and live in China in five or six years. You know, that's also why I love this format of a podcast, because you make a LinkedIn post and then people might just read the hook, the first sentence, that I'm leaving China because it's very hard. The competition is very hard. And then talking about it and explaining your reasons and explaining your motives, I think it makes a lot of sense. Right. It's not about, we like to be emotional,

[45:49] to have ups and downs really fast. Yeah. But the truth is that everything is way more complex. Spent 10 years in China. I tried something, it didn't work out. Maybe just because of me. Maybe. Maybe I didn't meet the right people. Yeah. Maybe, you know, it can be anything. And then I try the same in France. Yeah. I mean, different because it's a different country. But yeah. And it is possible to succeed. I mean, there are a lot of successful companies in Europe. Right, of course. And now that I understand that you're not building the second Unitree, it makes

[46:20] much more sense. Right. We stopped this dream. You stopped this dream. You had this dream? Yeah, kinda. Yeah. We were kind of thinking about it in China. Yeah, thinking. But how big was your team here in China for engineers? But if you get the right one, you can go fast. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it was not about the quality of the engineers. It was the engineers plus the funding. 100%. Yeah. We also went to one company last week. They. They exist only for two years now and they are ex-Tesla, working on the Optimus.

[46:54] Optimus. What is Optimus? Optimus. Yeah. Right. And now they, they are two years old and they already have 300 people working for them. Oh wow, 300. And they have three versions out now already. Like the force of a real humanoid is even coming. It's crazy how fast things can go. Right. In the end it is the core team. If you have like two or three people and you get the funding, then it's the, the humanoid robot with legs and arms is very hard to build. Yeah, it's a lot of programming, a lot of parts and components.

[47:25] And the competition became more and more crazy. So you need more complex mechanisms. But if you make a robot like on a stick, what we're doing on the walker, it starts to be easier. It's easier to do it. For example, if you have no legs for a humanoid robot, just on wheels, it starts to be like 3, 4 times easier. 5 times easier. But the humanoid robot dream. This one. Yeah. You need people, money. Yeah, this one is hard. So what is your dream now? Realistic dream for the next five to seven

[47:59] years. Wow. I hope my first , my daughter is happy. Very French answer. And in my mind, I don't have a dream because I would just try to make it happen. Not to dream. Just I hope, I hope I can make many elderly people smile with my robot. Yeah. To make them really enjoy it and to make them ready to pay for it. To be like, yeah, I can pay for this robot. You make my life better.

[48:31] Especially my dad and my grandparents. Yeah. And I can create a robot and they tell me, yeah, I'm , it helped me to grow the tomatoes. It helped me to lower my blood sugar and I feel better. I feel more happy. I would be so happy, after, of course, funding, profit, and so on. But if you make people happy with the product, most of the time, you know, funding and profit come together. Cool. Sounds like a good dream. And we wish you all the best. Thank you. And talk to you again in seven years when you're back in China. Thank you. Thank you so much. Maybe before, you never know.

[49:04] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you.